Sigh:( Half Life 2 deeply flawed... why see inside...

[b***@onetel.net.uk]

Been playing the game, it's great, but it has one HUGE FLAW. So big I
think it spoils the game. What is it? you ask.

It jerks every time you move left and right.


Even on my Pentium 4, 3.20ghz, 512 MB pc, the screen is so jerky. No
matter what resolution, what amount of detail, it jerks. At first I
never really noticed; I was blown away with the pretty graphics but
after a few hours the jerky movement was plain to see.

Why does it jerk so much when you scroll left and right? Forward is
super smooth but left and right with the mouse produces a jerky frame
rate. To be as frank as possible, I have played smoother shooters on my
PS2 than this game. Never thought I would say that but it's true. A
great shame as the gameplay, graphics and atmosphere are second to
none. But I read no reviews that mentioned the jerky left-right frame
rate. Seems blatantly obvious this game is not smooth. Great game but
not as cutting edge as the hype and the reviews suggest.

[b***@onetel.net.uk]

If anyone has the game and the left right movement is super smooth, can
you tell me what graphics card you're using. Mine is an ATi Mobility
Radeon 7000 -with 64 shared mb. Is that good enough to produce a
smooth left right frame rate or do I need a faster card? I think it's
good enough but I'm not that up to speed with game specs.
Many thanks if you can help.:)

[DaveL]

Yeah, you do need a faster video card. Your Radeon 7000 is a very low DX7
chip using system memory for textures. I'm surprised it runs at all on
that.

DaveL

Post by b***@onetel.net.uk
If anyone has the game and the left right movement is super smooth, can
you tell me what graphics card you're using. Mine is an ATi Mobility
Radeon 7000 -with 64 shared mb. Is that good enough to produce a
smooth left right frame rate or do I need a faster card? I think it's
good enough but I'm not that up to speed with game specs.
Many thanks if you can help.:)

[b***@onetel.net.uk]

Read the first post on the link here, Dave. Kinda proves you wrong.

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=33792006

Quote:

Hardware independent - the problem is found from onboard sound to
audigy 2 to high-end studio sound cards, from Radeon 7000 to X800XT PE,
normal HDDs to Raid arrays, 256 mb of ram to 1.5 gb of ram, etc.

[Kevin Steele]

thought about it a bit, then said...

Post by b***@onetel.net.uk
Read the first post on the link here, Dave. Kinda proves you wrong.
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=33792006
Hardware independent - the problem is found from onboard sound to
audigy 2 to high-end studio sound cards, from Radeon 7000 to X800XT PE,
normal HDDs to Raid arrays, 256 mb of ram to 1.5 gb of ram, etc.

You're merging two problems - the jerkiness you see, and the sound
stuttering.

The jerkiness you're experiencing is probably due to your video card,
while the sound stuttering is a more common problem.

Either way, the game certainly isn't "deeply flawed."

[b***@onetel.net.uk]

How can it be my video card when other people with different cards have
also suffered the same problem? The problem is real, be it the sound
and date lags - it's not to do with my or other people's machines.

I know very little about making computer games, but it doesn't take a
genius or a talented Valve programmer to know the game is too densely
programmed - hence the sound and video lags. Reduce the game content,
the extraneous data - such as some trees, pillars, crates, background
etc and the game will be super smooth.. If I were a betting person I
would bet Valve that would cure the problem. Although HL 2 is an
incredible game and has pushed gaming forward, current pc technology is
not fast enough to handle the amount of data being processed. It would
appear to be that simple a reason, folks. But the game is still
fantastic - even with the data lags. But I am certain the game can lose
some detail and run smoother.

[Eric Lebecque]

I've just tried it with my ATI Radeon 9600 Pro... no surprise, it's
definitely less smooth while straffing or worse turning.

In another hand on TV travelling and camera rotations are NEVER smooth, so
what do you expect ?

I would say that in real life, it is even true. Our brain cannot see
travelling images. Our eyes have to "scan" the landscape when travelling on
train for example (and then we look like Cylons on ekstasy).

You are maybe asking too much. This game already kicks ass; lets enjoy
improvements step-by-step.

[b***@onetel.net.uk]

I think even the most pro Half-Life 2 fan has to acknowledge the game
does stutter - even if this doesn't affect every gamer's copy of the
game.

Here is the best proof I found that I and many others are not
exaggerating this...

http://www.blep.net/hl2stutter/

I don't think we are asking too much to expect a game that has taken
six years to produce to be smooth. I don't think so. The harsh reality
looks as if Vivendi put pressure on Valve to finish the game and Valve
didn't finish bug testing the game. What is more incredible is the fact
the very first sequence in the game is bugged - you have terrible sound
lag when the G-man talks. Now unless Valve tested their finished code
on one machine alone (which I doubt) it's impossible they would not see
this. So why was the game released knowing that on high res mode you
get serious sound stutter on the first scene?

There is also a genuine conspiracy about this game - namely, not one
review I read of this game said the game had bad audio or video
stutter. Not one. Sure, they all came out with the stock stuff like
"it's the best game ever yadda yadda yadda," but anyone - let alone a
seasoned games reviewer - can see this game has serious frame rate
problems, glitches and sound problems, and yet they all ignored it. So
either they're all going blind or most were encouraged to ignore these
faults by Vivendi.

I'm not being critical of the actual game,its gameplay - it is superb,
but most people don't buy a flashy sportcar and then find out most of
the gears don't work. This is how I feel about Half-Life 2. Amazing to
look at, fantastic level design etc, but the basic movement is bugged
and the game should have been delayed until it was rectified. Posting
patches on Steam is not the way to market this game. You wouldn't need
patches if the game had been extensively tested prior to release.

[b***@onetel.net.uk]

How can it be my video card when other people with different­ cards
have
also suffered the same problem? The problem is real, be it t­he sound
and data lags - it's not to do with my or other people's mac­hines.


I know very little about making computer games, but it doesn­'t take a

genius or a talented Valve programmer to know the game is to­o densely

programmed - hence the sound and video lags. Reduce the game­ content,

the extraneous data - such as some trees, pillars, crates, b­ackground

etc and the game will be super smooth.. If I were a betting ­person I
would bet Valve that would cure the problem. Although HL 2 i­s an
incredible game and has pushed gaming forward, current pc te­chnology
is
not fast enough to handle the amount of data being processed­. It
would
appear to be that simple a reason, folks. But the game is st­ill
fantastic - even with the data lags. But I am certain the ga­me can
lose
some detail and run smoother.

[DaveL]

You are missing the point. This game has had problems with an intermittent
stutter. It only happens when starting a new level or during an auto save.
Most of this problem has been fixed by Valve with steam updates. You have a
different problem. Your's is one of non-fluid motion which is caused by
inferior video hardware. Now do you understand?

DaveL


<***@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message news:***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
How can it be my video card when other people with different­ cards
have
also suffered the same problem? The problem is real, be it t­he sound
and data lags - it's not to do with my or other people's mac­hines.


I know very little about making computer games, but it doesn­'t take a

genius or a talented Valve programmer to know the game is to­o densely

programmed - hence the sound and video lags. Reduce the game­ content,

the extraneous data - such as some trees, pillars, crates, b­ackground

etc and the game will be super smooth.. If I were a betting ­person I
would bet Valve that would cure the problem. Although HL 2 i­s an
incredible game and has pushed gaming forward, current pc te­chnology
is
not fast enough to handle the amount of data being processed­. It
would
appear to be that simple a reason, folks. But the game is st­ill
fantastic - even with the data lags. But I am certain the ga­me can
lose
some detail and run smoother.

[b***@onetel.net.uk]

You are missing my point! LOL

I am not talking solely about sound problems, I know the sound lags at
various points. Play the game on mid res for faster sound updates. My
point is I and many other gamers have significant video lags. I've
posted links to prove this. Many gamers have experienced this. So it's
not my video card. It's a fault with the game - be it a bug or some
kind or the game is too detailed for current processors and video
cards. Maybe it's a mixture of the two.

Let me reiterate - enter a sparse room or less populated area in HL2
and the left-right mouse frame update is smooth - go into a populated
area and it's noticably jerky. I can't make it clearer than that.

[Eric Lebecque]

Just think about one thing : In two years when you would have buy your brand
new Pentium 6 - 12 GHz - 15 Gb RAM, you will still enjoy playing HL² because
it will be still as good as you remembered, plus it will be better regarding
the SLIGHT "flaws" you are talking about and that would have disappear.
=)

[DaveL]

I see your point clearly, especially since your most recent reply makes it
crystal clear. It's not a bug. It's just that your video is not good
enough to play it smoothly. You still doubt me? Try Doom3. That game
will surely be a slide show for you. This is the way newer games will be
for you. It's not a bug. It's just that the developers made it to run on
more powerful hardware. This is the way computer gaming progresses. One
day my Radeon 9600XT will not be able to play new games either. If I want
to play them with a certain amount of smoothness then I will have to
upgrade. With this video card I can run HL2 at 1024 x 768 with 2AA and 2AF
and medium quality settings. If I try to set it any higher the smoothness
decreases and all movements are jerky. The more detail on the screen, the
harder it is on the video card. This is the way it is. Accept it.

DaveL

Post by b***@onetel.net.uk
You are missing my point! LOL
I am not talking solely about sound problems, I know the sound lags at
various points. Play the game on mid res for faster sound updates. My
point is I and many other gamers have significant video lags. I've
posted links to prove this. Many gamers have experienced this. So it's
not my video card. It's a fault with the game - be it a bug or some
kind or the game is too detailed for current processors and video
cards. Maybe it's a mixture of the two.
Let me reiterate - enter a sparse room or less populated area in HL2
and the left-right mouse frame update is smooth - go into a populated
area and it's noticably jerky. I can't make it clearer than that.

[b***@onetel.net.uk]

"I see your point clearly, especially since your most recent ­reply
makes it
crystal clear. It's not a bug. It's just that your video i­s not
good
enough to play it smoothly. You still doubt me? Try Doom3.­ That
game
will surely be a slide show for you. This is the way newer ­games
will be
for you. It's not a bug. It's just that the developers mad­e it to
run on
more powerful hardware. This is the way computer gaming pro­gresses.
One
day my Radeon 9600XT will not be able to play new games eith­er. If I
want
to play them with a certain amount of smoothness then I will­ have to
upgrade. With this video card I can run HL2 at 1024 x 768 w­ith 2AA
and 2AF
and medium quality settings. If I try to set it any higher ­the
smoothness
decreases and all movements are jerky. The more detail on t­he
screen, the
harder it is on the video card. This is the way it is. Acc­ept it."



I have already posted links which prove it is not a video card issue.
Please don't ignore what I posted.

PROOF:

http://www.blep.net/hl2stutter/

Quote:

How Big is the Problem?
Within hours of 12:01 AM PST on November 16th I started seeing forum
postings about this on Rage3D.To date there have been well over a
thousand postings on the problem. The Steam User Forums has a thread on
this problem with over 200,000 views. There have been polls conducted
showing that the majority of Half-Life 2 players are having this
problem. The following are links to major threads on this issue:

Audio Stuttering (Steam Users Forum) (1,700+ posts, 200,000+ views)
Audio Problem with HL2 (Halflife2.net) (760+ posts, 81,000+ views)
Game Skipping (Half-Life Fallout Forums) (110+ posts)
Audio Problems (Halflife2.net) (60+ posts, 6,000+ views)
Anyone get small 'stuttering' in HL2? (Halflife2.net) (50+ posts,
5,000+ views)
Half-Life 2 Tech Thread: Loading Tweak p16 (Penny Arcade Forums) (650+
posts, 27,000+ views)
Half-Life 2 stuttering issue (Rage3D Forums)
Half-Life 2 Thread of Release (Shacknews Comments) 1
Half-Life 2 Thread of Release (Shacknews Comments) 2
Games: Half Life 2 Stuttering Bug Official (Slashdot) (300+ posts)
What we know about the Half Life 2 stuttering issue thus far
([H]ard|Forum) (90+ posts, 2,600+ views)



Okay, convinced? Thousands of people have experienced this. Not just
me. I have the retail version - go read the back, Dave. It gives the
minimum requirements - I have more than the minimum requirements - so
too thousands of other gamers. So the game should have zero or very
little frame/sound lag - but it does - even in low and medium
resolution (slow frame rate persists). You saying it's my video card at
fault is not placing the blame with Valve. It's their job to release a
smooth game, not mine. If my pc has the right specs then I am entitled
to expect a smooth game.

[Eric Lebecque]

Save your saliva Dave, we are dealing with a fanatic (anti-fanatic
actually).

He doesn't understand that Forums are mainly like newspaper : Noone will
report that the chef of your favorite restaurant has prepared the best-ever
dinner one has to taste in centuries... but that a car accident caused 10
casualties will be more likely (over-)reported.

He is young. Hopefully he will grow-up.

--------

Eric

[b***@onetel.net.uk]

You are missing my point! LOL


I am not talking solely about sound problems, I know the sou­nd lags
at
various points. Play the game on mid res for faster sound up­dates. My

point is I and many other gamers have significant video lags­. I've
posted links to prove this. Many gamers have experienced thi­s. So
it's
not my video card. It's a fault with the game - be it a bug ­of some
kind or the game is too detailed for current processors and ­video
cards. Maybe it's a mixture of the two.


Let me reiterate - enter a sparse room or less populated are­a in HL2
and the left-right mouse frame update is smooth - go into a ­populated

area and it's noticably jerky. I can't make it clearer than ­that.
Reply

[Robert Moir]

Post by Kevin Steele
The jerkiness you're experiencing is probably due to your video card,
while the sound stuttering is a more common problem.
Either way, the game certainly isn't "deeply flawed."

Given the long wait, the "Dog ate.. er.. we mean hacked our server" excuses
for the delays and so-on, I'd say a game that still gets released with crap
like that stuttering problem has to be on the "deeply flawed" shortlist, at
least sitting somewhere out on a nominee's table for the award gala even if
it doesn't get its name picked out of the envelope.

[DaveL]

I think you'll find that not many laptops out there can run this game
smoothly.

DaveL

Post by b***@onetel.net.uk
Read the first post on the link here, Dave. Kinda proves you wrong.
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=33792006
Hardware independent - the problem is found from onboard sound to
audigy 2 to high-end studio sound cards, from Radeon 7000 to X800XT PE,
normal HDDs to Raid arrays, 256 mb of ram to 1.5 gb of ram, etc.

[jim]

my card is the ati 8500 with 128mb, noproblems here at all.

Post by b***@onetel.net.uk
If anyone has the game and the left right movement is super smooth, can
you tell me what graphics card you're using. Mine is an ATi Mobility
Radeon 7000 -with 64 shared mb. Is that good enough to produce a
smooth left right frame rate or do I need a faster card? I think it's
good enough but I'm not that up to speed with game specs.
Many thanks if you can help.:)

[Dr Feelgood]

Post by b***@onetel.net.uk
If anyone has the game and the left right movement is super smooth, can
you tell me what graphics card you're using. Mine is an ATi Mobility
Radeon 7000 -with 64 shared mb. Is that good enough to produce a
smooth left right frame rate or do I need a faster card? I think it's
good enough but I'm not that up to speed with game specs.
Many thanks if you can help.:)

Shared memory graphics card? You gotta be fucking kidding!

[Randall]

Your ATI 7000 may be on the edge of unusability with this game, as well as
processor speed. My ThinkPad T40 with a Radeon 7500 64MB non-shared and
1.6GHz Centrino plays fairly smoothly but there is some stutter. How much
system RAM do you have? That may be where your problem is. Also make sure
all the video and audio settings are set to low quality.

And Feelgood (I'm not going to dignify you by calling you Dr.), although
this person's laptop may be of low power, he may just want to be able to
play HL2 while traveling or away from home. Not very useful are you? Not
everybody has the money to buy the latest and greatest. Do you?

Post by Dr Feelgood

Post by b***@onetel.net.uk
If anyone has the game and the left right movement is super smooth, can
you tell me what graphics card you're using. Mine is an ATi Mobility
Radeon 7000 -with 64 shared mb. Is that good enough to produce a
smooth left right frame rate or do I need a faster card? I think it's
good enough but I'm not that up to speed with game specs.
Many thanks if you can help.:)

Shared memory graphics card? You gotta be fucking kidding!

[Kevin Steele]

thought about it a bit, then said...

Post by b***@onetel.net.uk
Been playing the game, it's great, but it has one HUGE FLAW. So big I
think it spoils the game. What is it? you ask.
It jerks every time you move left and right.

Go into your video options, select the "Advanced" button, and set the
"Wait for Vertical Sync" option to Enabled.

And, um, I don't see many (any?) others bitching about your problem.
Like you said, none of the reviews mention it.

Seems blatantly obvious the problem is with your system, not the game.

Post by b***@onetel.net.uk
Even on my Pentium 4, 3.20ghz, 512 MB pc, the screen is so jerky. No
matter what resolution, what amount of detail, it jerks. At first I
never really noticed; I was blown away with the pretty graphics but
after a few hours the jerky movement was plain to see.
Why does it jerk so much when you scroll left and right? Forward is
super smooth but left and right with the mouse produces a jerky frame
rate. To be as frank as possible, I have played smoother shooters on my
PS2 than this game. Never thought I would say that but it's true. A
great shame as the gameplay, graphics and atmosphere are second to
none. But I read no reviews that mentioned the jerky left-right frame
rate. Seems blatantly obvious this game is not smooth. Great game but
not as cutting edge as the hype and the reviews suggest.

[b***@onetel.net.uk]

Hey, I have altered every setting in video mode, it still jerks. Don't
get me wrong, it's not the worst jerky movement one could experience -
it's just not smooth. Here, I can prove it. Go play the game right now.
Walk or run forward - look at the smooth frame rate. It's super smooth.
Now move the mouse left or right and see that it's not as smooth.
That's all I am saying. Just expected the left right update to be as
smooth as the forward and back. But clearly it's not. Unless my PC is
slow - and being a Pent 4 it's not, it's the game at fault, not my
system.

[Kevin Steele]

thought about it a bit, then said...

Post by b***@onetel.net.uk
Hey, I have altered every setting in video mode, it still jerks. Don't
get me wrong, it's not the worst jerky movement one could experience -
it's just not smooth. Here, I can prove it. Go play the game right now.
Walk or run forward - look at the smooth frame rate. It's super smooth.
Now move the mouse left or right and see that it's not as smooth.
That's all I am saying. Just expected the left right update to be as
smooth as the forward and back. But clearly it's not. Unless my PC is
slow - and being a Pent 4 it's not, it's the game at fault, not my
system.

Turning seems just fine on my system (P4 3.06Ghz w/6800).

I'm guessing it looks smoother to you going forward and backward just
because the graphics aren't changing as dramatically (i.e., a wall is
just scaling bigger, rather than whole chunks of scenery moving past).

I suspect it's more of an optical illusion than anything else. I'd go to
the Steam forums and see if you can find others with your problem, and
find a solution.

[b***@onetel.net.uk]

I have played the game some more in windows box format - smaller sized
screen - and it looks even better graphics-wise. :)The game is
outstanding but the frame rate does stutter when in certain
environments - such as in hotel rooms (see level 1) and when a number
of grunts are attacking. I am no pc expert, but I have noticed the
frame rate stutters more when the shading is lighter. When you pass
lights, light colored walls etc the frame rate shows a glitch like old
videotape noise. It's not that bad - just something you spot.

By the way, if you look on the Steam forum, it pretty much confirms
what I have been posting. Here, check this out:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?s=c72407c64ae8e9827d09959904fc39a4&threadid=189238#

So I am not making this up! LOL

But the game is still outstanding. Perhaps saying the game was deeply
flawed was a bit of unfair of me, it's not. Perhaps the reality is
Valve put too much detail into the game and even Pentium 4 processors
can't cope with it. In hindsight, perhaps there should have been a
'reduce object content' setting. I think that would speed up the frame
rate and remove the odd jerk. I don't know if Valve look on this
newsgroup, or if they can add a new setting to the game, but if they
reduced the background detail a little, say some of the stuff which no
one really notices when they are in the heat of action, that could
speed up the game. See, lower resolution and lower detail doesn't alter
the amount of objects on screen. That's why the game is fastest when
you're in a tunnel or corridor. The processor has less to do because
it's only got a few objects to calculate. When you reach the big built
up areas and the grunts are attacking, the pc is having to pull its
weight to calculate the movement etc. So a lower object count setting
should solve the problem. I think it's worth Valve introducing it.

Having written all of the above, the game is amazing - best graphics I
have ever seen, great gameplay. One of the best games I have ever
played. It's like playing a 'real-life' game. I would say it's the most
significant game since the introduction of video games way back in the
mid-1970s. Real-time physics, photo-realistic graphics - Half-Life 2
has set a new standard. The first true 'real-life' game. A tremendous
achievement, Valve.

[b***@onetel.net.uk]

I think this proves there is a stutter problem....

http://vote.sparklit.com/poll.spark?pollID=887521

Tell you what, not that I know much about game technology, but I think
I will email Valve and see if they will consider adding a new 'lower
object content' setting. Could make the game smoother.

[Kevin Steele]

thought about it a bit, then said...

Post by b***@onetel.net.uk
I think this proves there is a stutter problem....
http://vote.sparklit.com/poll.spark?pollID=887521
Tell you what, not that I know much about game technology, but I think
I will email Valve and see if they will consider adding a new 'lower
object content' setting. Could make the game smoother.

The stuttering problem you point out is sound stuttering, not video
"glitches" when turning left and right.

It's a sudden drop in frame rates when entering new areas or right
before scripted actions happen. I had a bit of that, but the latest
patches fixed it for me.

Not accusing you of making anything up, but to post that HL2 is "deeply
flawed" is a bit of hyperbole, don't you think?

[b***@onetel.net.uk]

"Not accusing you of making anything up, but to post that HL2 is
"deeply
flawed" is a bit of hyperbole, don't you think?"

Nope, not really. Just type in " Half Life 2 stuttering" in your search
engine to see how common a problem it is. Clearly, it's a program flaw.
I doubt it's the sound alone - it's the frame update. Go down any empty
corridor and move left and right and there is no or hardly any glitch.
Do the same in any object-heavy location and there is a glitch. Every
type the screen updates you get a slow frame rate. Indeed, I was on
level two, the bit where you're in that room with the flying buzzsaws
and there are explosive crates on the floor. If you destroy the crates
- guess what - the frame update is smoother. So there's the proof.
Lower the polygons on screen and you solve the problem.

The game does suffer with poor sound update, this is also true, but so
far the worst sound was at the beginning with the G-Man chap. After
that on high res the sound has been okay on the whole. But I've only
played two levels so far.